Researcher  0:04  
So, so what what do you think about the overall experience of working with the system?

Participant  0:13  
I think really early on, it's a bit easier to work with it. I feel like as you progress through the through playing, becomes really difficult to pick up on a style or even, like, how do I play notes that are going to fit with what it's playing? Okay, that was the biggest issue. So the study was okay, during the practice, I sort of sort of realised, you know, if I play really complicated things, it's going to start playing a lot of random notes really quickly. Okay. So what I did is I started off simple, trying to get like a colon, I'd play something and see if I can get a response from it. Which actually worked quite nicely at the start. And then, yeah, it's like, I just thought it was okay, because then it would start playing. So playing high frequency notes. So I switched down to low frequency to try and give it some, you know, bit of extra life to at the bottom, it followed me down to the baseline, whereas I would have preferred for it to keep doing what it's doing up there. And I'll keep doing things down here. So when it followed me down, I went back up. So I think that's the communication, right, is being able to say,

Researcher  1:30  
Is this like, like, you wanted to lead in some moments or, or the other day, and that the system would follow? And at some point, maybe a system lead?

Participant  1:41  
Yeah, I felt like that's kind of Yeah, the leading and following. I think it's important when you improvise between two different things, I felt like the leading at the start, everything was okay, at the start, it led into the high frequencies, which an eye as it led, it led, I decided what I'm going to drop down, and I'm going to provide some harmony for it. But then the fact that it then followed me, right, instead of like, it's like, it's already made a decision to leave. And now it's decided, you know, two seconds, it's going to come to me, then I have to switch to the high frequencies. Yeah, that sort of communication saying, I'm going to drop down. So I know to go back up. Because obviously, if you play too much in one frequency becomes really overwhelming there.

Researcher  2:27  
So you would like that in some way, this thing is able to understand that that you are living in space for it to keep doing what he's doing and that you would like to go on. And yeah,

Participant  2:42  
that's it. Yeah, it needs its space to be dominant, you can't have two dominant voices.

Researcher  2:48  
What do you think that this could be in play? I mean, if you had some kind of mechanism to tell the system 'just stay there', or 'give me space'? Would you like that something extra that to be able to communicate that?

Participant  3:04  
You're definitely because I think that's when it started falling apart? When it follows me back down to be able to then say, No, you stay up there, you keep playing whatever you're playing up there. And then to be able to say, Okay, now we're going to switch. Right? Or I'm going to play a style of music now. Can you accompany me in that style. So that's what I try to do a few times is sometimes going to be confused. So I'd give it like a one, two second pause, maybe like switch up the style, and see if it all then follow me.

Researcher  3:33  
And kind of ask you this. I mean, you have experience improvising with people. Yes, sir. So this kind of thing, in the human setting, how would it work? How would you communicate to somebody that you want them to, to keep living? Or to stay there? Do you want to lead? And

Participant  3:59  
let me think, Well, I mean, when I play, I was like playing in a band. And we're sort of improvising, let's say, when it comes to like leading and not leading. Let's say there's like a bassist and a guitarist, and maybe you want the bassist to go on a solo, maybe verbal, verbal way of saying it, like, give us a bass solo, or even myself just going from a really leading position, then to a very harmonic position. Just leave space for anyone in the band to take it. So sometimes it's not even a matter of I want. I know what I want. It's okay, I'm done. Leading. I'm done with my part. Now I'm gonna back away and see if someone can come fill that void.

Researcher  4:42  
So you give that a space. Yeah, I'm giving that a space is like going low.

Participant  4:47  
Yeah, well, I think in this case, it was you know, I sort of took the high frequencies as that's the dominant and I dropped down. But really, you can go from playing a melody to and dropping down just playing a chord progression. Right. So you don't want too many dominating voices, right? Otherwise it gets a bit too messy.

Researcher  5:08  
Okay. Okay, if if you could think of a way of doing that with a system like this, like, what kind of mechanism? Do you think that they will be happy to use like a verbal instruction about tone? A pedal?

Participant  5:27  
I mean, a pedal. Yes, I mean, obviously pedal verbal. That's kind of, that's nice, because you control exactly like, it'll know, like, you press it. And it's like, now I'm taking the lead. So it'd be nice. If I'm just composing just for fun. I just want to take a break with I want to compose with an AI like it's a human. I don't want to tell it once ago, in. That makes sense. It's like when I compose my friends, I think, right now it's your turn. Now it's your turn. It's just, we just, I guess we just feel it. But when I say we feel it, we mean that now there's a void with a dominant instrument was that's gone. Okay, so let's say, your guitar, your bass, and all that guitars doing a solo, once it stops, there's now emptiness. And our soul needs to come in and fill it and maybe my drama, all of a sudden start giving us a call drum solo or so it's like, if it could work out itself, like now that I've gone relaxed. If it could be like, now I'm going to dominate.

Researcher  6:24  
Okay, so it's a lot about that. That is place in some way.

Participant  6:27  
That's how I always say is like, because obviously, if you have too much stuff going on, it's gonna sound like risky. Listen to this. There's moments where we're both sort of dominating. Right, and it sounds like a mess. But I think with music, you know, you have like in an orchestra, not all the instruments are playing. Yeah, yeah, not all the instruments are playing, you know, delayed, right? They usually creating a nice harmony, leaving space for the focus. So if it could realise that there were moments where I'd be like, I want to switch to this, I want to play something simple. If it could be like, Oh, yeah, it slowed down, I'm going to come out and dominate. That'd be really fun.

Researcher  7:09  
Okay, that sounds nice. Is there anything else? Anything from the side of the system that you would have liked to understand? I haven't actually checked your, your comments I normally do. So is there anything from the side of the system that you would like? If like at points when you say, I would like to understand what the system is doing here?

Participant  7:40  
Is it anything?

Participant  7:41  
I'm trying to think? So points I wanted to, I just feel like when I just keep thinking about the start was where I was kind of feeling what was going on? It was more when did it start to? Like, when was the point where it then transitioned into playing a lot of these mid frequency notes just in the middle, just like this, this, this this? It's like, what did I do to cause it to start doing because if you listen to it at the start, I tried to play a little thing. I haven't played back to me, I play something else. It sort of does that. And, you know,

Researcher  8:17  
let me listen. I'm going to stop for now the the interview and then we can

-------------- Begin Interview Part 2 ----------------

Researcher  0:02  
Okay, sorry.

Participant  0:05  
Yeah, so it was just more. The reason for the pause was I thought maybe I could see how it works. I thought maybe I could refresh it. Now that's taken a bit of a break, it might slow down. And then we can come in with something together.

Researcher  0:21  
So when you expect there at a moment of silence, you are silent on the system silent as well.

Participant  0:27  
Yeah, I mean, if I was to perform live, obviously, like, you don't want these massive bits of silence. But here, I just because I feel this disconnect from the system. Okay. Right. I don't really know how else to communicate that what we're doing right now isn't working.

Researcher  0:42  
Okay. So yeah, it makes sense. So with the post, you were trying to communicate that that isn't working.

Participant  0:48  
That's the only way I could think that if it was live with a human at the sea, I wouldn't pause because we're performing. But right here, I was like, how am I going to tell it that we have lost what we were doing before? And now we're going to reset that? So I thought the only thing I could probably do is pause. But it just keeps playing. Yeah. Yeah. So I realised that and I tried to,

Researcher  1:09  
do you think that at that moment, you would like to hit reset and start again, for instance?

Participant  1:17  
Or, like a pseudo reset, right? Like, I wouldn't want it to be like, I don't know, I just got stopped and whatever it's doing cuts, I'd like to, I stopped playing for a bit over and play simple notes. and have it sort of end its section, if that makes sense. Put that to an end. And then we go together, rather than just a direct cut.

Researcher  1:37  
Okay. But I mean, when a man with a reset is for the system to forget everything.

Participant  1:43  
Yeah, well, yeah. Once it's built down. Yeah. To sort of forget it. And then we can start again, from zero from zero, basically, yes. There we go.

Researcher  1:55  
No, good. Okay, let me use. So I add a bass line to try and adjust the direction of the AI. However, this doesn't seem to be working of the world resulting in a messy, messy sound. Okay, I was lying.

Participant  2:17  
That's something I would probably do is like, someone I was playing with, let's change it up. Let's change up the baseline and they don't automatically now it's time to switch up

Researcher  2:26  
the melody this way. Okay. Sorry, says bass. bass line. Okay. So

Participant  2:33  
who knows? Yes, that's bass bass. Okay, in terms of music, whereas ba sees, like, this is our base kind of thing.

Researcher  2:42  
Okay. Okay. Can I play sim? ball high notes. But again, the AI does not match this style. It is also difficult for me to match the style of the AI is music. Yeah.

Participant  2:56  
But that could also be like, my inability, as a musician, right. I think at the end, I tried to match this randomness, like spacey kind of style. Okay. I think maybe, maybe I could, it's more practice. But I guess it's just not the style of that plan.

Researcher  3:14  
But the you Do you ever find that as challenging to work with a person,

Participant  3:21  
it can be challenging to work with people with different styles. But I guess in that case, you can communicate a bit more. So maybe you can be I don't really play much with jazz musicians. But maybe they can be like, hey, we'll just play this chord progression. play this chord progression, they'll do their thing. And once you hear them played, you already know the style they're going for. So you yourself can imitate that style. I think the sorry, the issue here was I yeah, I couldn't get the style, or any sort of style in my head. Whether that's the AI or me either. I don't currently so

Researcher  3:55  
yeah, no, I understand. Here, I wasn't sure how to proceed as the board was dominating the mid frequencies with random notes.

Participant  4:08  
This is kind of like a big issue. Like he kept playing in these like middle section. So what, which is kind of like a dominant section to Okay, that's like, Well, for me, anyway, at that time, I was like jumping around here, here and here. Whereas, which sort of left me if I play in the middle, now, there's going to be just always noise so much. So I was sticking either to write the end or right up here to see what I could do to make it sounds.

Researcher  4:36  
Yeah, no, I understand. I mean, is there there? Do you think that with all these if you had some way of like, we were talking, visualising maybe what the system is doing? The notes that is that is playing most frequently. Would that help?

Participant  4:59  
I think so. Yeah. Understanding cuz I mean, I don't think maybe no, I, I'm pretty sure it mostly was fitting within the key that I was playing. But it was definitely adding notes outside of the key, which isn't really a problem for me, just understanding what notes it was regularly playing would help me then build Maxim, some sort of chord progression around it. Okay, I don't think this, like from playing with it, I don't think I think it's a dominating musician to play with, it just wants to keep playing its lead thing. As an improvising musician I want to accompany and seeing what it's playing gives me a better idea of at least what key is playing in, and how I can then build some sort of harmony or even to sort of match that.

Researcher  5:48  
Okay, sounds very good. I changed this style by playing more high frequencies, it would have been nice if I could have notified the AI that this line was needed. Okay. How do you imagine that happening? Like you're notifying the system? That is, can you think of some or I mean, you can, but and you might in a wave done happening?

Participant  6:22  
You know, me saying, I feel like right now, because it's sort of dominating, I never get like a chance to, to tell it to do anything. ignored, I think of when I perform and be all of a sudden, I just come out of nowhere with it. And everyone would just around me match that. That's kind of what I look for, if I'm thinking on improvise for fun, but otherwise, something I guess, you know, like we said before, buttons, or even like a verbal thing to be like, you know, give me give me a bass harmony to this commanded automatically German. Yeah.

Researcher  6:56  
So you think you think that maybe this? Would they have the space again, if they if the system would come down and maybe try to hear you?

Participant  7:07  
Yeah, so it's like, we're both going to be paying attention to each other. And right now, it doesn't feel like it's paying attention to me. I feel like and also, from we said before about the buttons, I actually do think, for me, the voice is better. If I'm playing live, or with someone, like sometimes I will just go to my bassist, I'll say, 'Hey can you switch to this key?' Some things that are really difficult to communicate without speaking. I could play in a different key and he'll understand, but there would be like a moment of mess, or I could say, 'in the next four bars we're going to switch the key to like a semitone above'. So being able to say that, if you were playing, 'alright, we're going to raise the key by a semitone above, in four bars'. Four bars later, you both move up.

Researcher  7:50  
Do you do that when you improvise?

Participant  7:52  
Yeah, we do that a lot. Well, I mean, like, switch, whether it's switching key, whether it's switching tempo, just anything,

Researcher  7:58  
might you verbalise it?

Participant  8:00  
Yeah. No, like, not for everything. But when it comes to something complicated, sometimes it's just easier to turn around to your drummer and say, 'alright we're going to switch to this tempo', we're going to switch to this, like, 'let's go to halftime'. That's something I say a lot. So I go, 'let's go to halftime' rather than just playing halftime and there's like a whole awkward stage. 

Researcher  8:25  
Where fiction is doing and they have to recognise what you're doing. You say it before? Okay. Okay, that's interesting. Here, I play at a slower tempo here, but it feels like the AI has not acknowledged this in a real performance of who have expected the tempo to slow as we transition to a nurse time. Can I listen to it?

Researcher  9:00  
Compared to the was just yeah. Yeah, that was just so there is a lot that also that the system that you like, the system to realise from the music?

Participant  9:13  
Yeah, I think, like a move for us. I mean, for the voice that's like complicated things. But then there's like the feel of the piece of music. And I say the feel it's like, once, you know, the harmony slows down. Not that the melody should the melody should then match whatever works together. Right. Yeah. And I think throughout most performance, I didn't have control. So in various aspects, like then I'm saying, Can I take control? Mm hmm. Can I slow it down and we'll start to focus.

Researcher  9:45  
Okay. I think I'm going to say this failed too much. Again, this is both because I'm unable to match the style of day I have an indication of the election. He wants to take the indication of the election. Yeah. Again, I paused because I wasn't sure how to proceed with the good. He does load the template to enterpise it will have been good. If I have not defined here, I will just look down at the sun is coming to an end. Yeah. That's something that comes up a lot as well. So, again here, I guess, is there any way different from the music actually for you from the, from the art of slowing down? Any, any other way that you use, for instance, when you're playing with older musicians to end to end the pace? Or is only to the music that you slow it down?

Participant  10:43  
No, it's not never just slowing down. It's all right. Again, this is like that weed. Oh, it's just the feel. But sometimes we're just not where we got we got this. And I know it sounds weird. But sometimes, it's not even like a matter of communicating where the song might end by going faster, like really hard and then dead. But when I say it's the feel, it's like if one of us started playing slow, like the drama started going, douche, douche and each beat was coming slower and slower than all of us would know that we're ending slow, and we'd all be coming in, you know, matching that same tempo. So there, that's something that you got to pick up just from the music, right? It's like you can tell it's slowing down. It's time we slow it down. That's the feeble. Whereas if it's something like an abrupt ending, that's more of like a communication aspect. That's more where I look at the drummer. I'll be like, are we gonna cut it? And then you know, 31234

Researcher  11:42  
Okay, nice. Okay. Perfect.
